Interview: Jah Wobble

A tale of spirituality, redemption and wisdom, the post-punker reflects on his antics and how he’s sought solace in his new appeal to faith...

When I say Jah Wobble, you’d probably think of a plethora of things. 

Post-punk maverick. Dub extraordinaire. Legendary bassist. 

However, I don’t think a 66-year-old Cockney bloke who can perfectly recall the Buddhist suttas, would first come to mind...

For context, Jah is the musical mastermind behind several projects, most notably being the original bassist for the well-revered, Public Image Limited. 

Jah actually acquired his name from fellow bandmate at the time, Sid Vicious, whose slurry rendition of Jah’s real name, John Wardle, proved too hard to pronounce under sufficient alcohol usage. 

Thus, Jah Wobble was birthed onto the music-scene! 

It’s also worth noting that Jah heralds a very impressive post-PiL discography. 

Spawning collaborations with the likes of Can’s very own Holger Czukay, celebrated avant-garder Björk and fellow experimentalist Brian Eno, Jah proves time and time again that he is an unstoppable  force within the music scene. 

And through it all, he’s only gained momentum. 

My conversation with Jah however, well... it takes a different approach.

You see, although we did touch on his musical achievements - and rightly so! - my focus geared more towards the backstory of Jah and what it is that has effectively made him the man he is today. 

Jah seems worlds away from the guy he once was - and we did touch on that: his long withstanding sobriety and conversion to Buddhism certainly must receive its flowers!

And I kind of wanted to explore that, because surely, such a change-up in behaviour from boozing with Sid and John Lydon to a tee-total lifestyle, must have had some shift in his musical trajectory? 

Well, let’s talk opening thoughts...

When I first encountered Jah, I was floored by his intellectualism.

His deep fascination with Buddhist philosophy is definitely what first drew me to him.

His reflections veered on experiencing the pitfalls of fame and what drink and drugs can do to a man. 

And so, my first impressions of Jah was that this is a man now reformed whose found a much more spiritualistic and undisturbed approach to living. 

And that’s exactly what we first touched on. 

Jah: The Buddha believed that everybody had a different makeup, some people need a parable, some people need basic immediate awareness. You have the turnings of the will, and it applies to different people and different stages about the path. The Buddhist seals are great for me...that all phenomena lack an inherent existence, everything is connected independently, and all conditions of phenomena are impermanent. That’s why they have to be impermanent - because they lack an inherent existence and that’s why there’s suffering. We cling on to it and realising those 3 bring happiness which is the fourth pillar. If you try to find happiness in the relative world it won’t work. It’s nice to have an openness when you go into the world and deal with the relative world and Buddhism, I think, it can help you do that and be mindful of how you treat other people, That’s the pre-eminent thing, the Buddhist truth, I think. 

Ria: What got your interest in philosophy? 

Jah: I was brought up a Roman Catholic so something that resonated with me back then were two things. One, the idea of the divine mother, some feminine Virgin Mary, and why that resonated was because she seemed approachable. The other was the Holy Spirit -  formless, blowing like a wind, mysterious, there before thought could be y’know? A real kind of supernatural, beyond what we know. 

I loved libraries, and I read the Upanishads very young and then eventually it just led to Buddhism because I was never quite satisfied with how I broadly regarded the world. It just felt there was an inconsistency in how I looked at the world and felt the world. 

Obviously, I’ve been an idiot at times because your mind is so powerful like a cyclone, because we identify with the relative world. We identify with a particular thing and that particular thing is a condition phenomena of course. But we make the mistake, and this is why all condition phenomena are suffering, we identify with that very particular thing rather than the general thing. We can’t bear to be in the general thing. Being in the general thing means I am one with everybody else - it’s not a fixed one but I and everyone else must have that same presence, that same consciousness and also, there’s no object to grab onto. It’s more a state of quiet being, not going out into the world somehow making mischief, acting, getting a reaction, reactive. 

We’re living in ignorance y’know? When I go into the quiet sense of being, something else goes on. So, you have moments of wisdom even as a young man but then you become really stupid again temporarily. I thought a lot about this stuff because I just want to be happy not because I want to realise something clever. I was always fascinated with how I could not suffer, Ria. If we can’t be a little bit easy on ourselves, we can’t be easy on anybody.

Ria: I was going to say you have been a musician for quite a few years but how does that kind of relate to the music scene and how you were when you were younger? Did you ever feel like you were quite easily swayed. because I am sure there were so many people at that time who were using and stuff like that really? You know when you get easily swept in with that sort of crowd, how was that?

Jah: I was very headstrong, and I went down my own path in life I think but when I drunk alcohol, let alone drugs, I loved it. It had an effect on me that...it was a holy experience “wow” y’know, you drink, you feel you love everybody - the inhibitions die away, and it has an effect temporarily that is this wonderful feeling. Obviously, you quickly move through the gears - you remember that euphoria but before long you’re throwing up, you get ill. It’s a horrible drug y’know, throwing up, vomiting everywhere and behaving like an idiot and all that stuff. ‘Course drugs, speed and cocaine make you very high - yet again you feel euphoria, you have an overload of dopamine’s and luckily, I got out of that very young. 28 years of age I stopped, and it was the best thing I ever did. It is why I am 66 and touchwood still relatively healthy and strong and can still play music and do stuff. 

With booze, it’s such a crude drug. I think it was first used as an anaesthetic, sawing people’s arms off, they’d give ‘em booze...so it’s a very crude drug where control gets lost, and things get really ugly. In all these years, the time I’ve left receptions, or left stuff early, I don’t think on any of those occasions anybody has ever said the next day, “oh where did you go, you left early?” cos they’re so drunk that no one even notices! So I learnt, don’t say goodbye.  I’ve never missed it, seriously in all these years, I’ve never felt inhibited or y’know stiff. I’ve been able to make all the music I’ve been wanting to make, able to communicate better. It’s fine, not a problem.

Ria: Going onto your music, I saw in your biography that you’ve listed so many different niches. There was global music, there was dub (which is the one that kept coming up a lot), obviously post-punk as well. What do you want to say? What do you want to share?

Jah: I started out with Public Image. The first music I really listened to, which really grabbed me, was ska music. So, very early reggae, which was the urban music of the time. It wasn’t really unusual to hear it. It was on the radio y’know. They used to work it, so those records didn’t get as high on the charts as they should’ve done but they still were successful. I come from the east end of London and so, Paul’s record shop - he had a stall at Whitechapel - they’d have the top 40 chart alongside it. They’d have the top 40 ska and blue beat chart so that was the music. I prefer the reggae versions to pop hits a lot of the time - so reggae kinda rhythm, bass-playing, that really became the thing that I loved more than anything!

I also loved Stevie Wonder’s ‘Innervisions’ album in the mid-70s. I liked ‘The Sound of Philadelphia’. I grew up listening to Tamla Motown as well, so mainly what we used to call ‘black music.’ I didn’t like much ‘white music.’ I wasn’t that mad on that. 

Some of the pop music I really liked which was really good: T-Rex and the Sweet. I liked some David Bowie - didn’t love Bowie but some of Bowie’s music was absolutely unbelievable. Some of the Beatles’ stuff obviously was absolutely unbelievable. I like the Who’s Quadrophenia and then, over the years I continued to love reggae and then as I heard music from around the world. Egyptian music and Indian music - captivated by that as well y’know?...

Obviously, my wife’s Chinese so she runs a Chinese youth orchestra, my sons were in it. They’d come back practicing, and she’d always tell them off arguing. They were very spirited kids, running around - good musicians. They’re great players, my sons. I’d wind them up. I’d sing the songs and change the arrangements, and my sons would go “dad that’s wrong, that’s the wrong arrangement.” Then she’d say to me, “do you really like this particular tune I did?” and we ended up making Chinese dub. She said, “let’s get a recording session and I’ll get some money together and you can record it if you like.” And I said, “yeah I’d like to” cos I realised I could put a bass to it y’know, very Chinese. We’ve done a lot of stuff together over the years and I prefer working with Eastern musicians, for one simple reason - you don’t talk about chords hardly. There’s no chordal tradition, its more melodic. It doesn’t mean to say it’s not sophisticated. It is. There’s lot of overtones and subtones and everything, but I find it easier working with them than working with some really flash jazz keyboard player from Middlesex or something because they’re into all the augmented chords and lots of musical theory. Like predicate logic, it gives me a bit of a headache. I just wanna play, I just wanna reason. I don’t wanna particularly apply an algebraic formula into a philosophical situation as such  that will be there anyway. I don’t need to get lost in all the theory of everything y’know?

Ria: I think that’s really beautiful. I think also the fact that you make music with your wife - that’s an insane experience. Very little people have that relationship where they are able to be husband-wife but also be able to create something that’s going to be there eternally, years to come it will still be there. An eternalised partnership built on mutual admiration. You and your wife collaborating on this beautiful thing of music - something you’re both passionate about, I think that’s a really sweet sentiment. You were influenced by the rebel music of the Dublineers, Marley and El Chocolate whilst also citing that you’re deeply inspired by your own personal experiences - how do you find what is going to inspire your ‘next sound’?

Jah: There was a time once where I was in New York and we’ve never really talked about this, me and Bill, but I was doing a session for Bill. I’d been making a record, and he wanted me to play on one more track. He was there with the engineer. I turned up and I plugged the bass in, and I started playing a line. I hadn’t heard the track I was playing on yet. They started the track - and it’s a two-chord kind of pattern I’m playing on the bass, I’m going G to A or whatever. They start the track and the bass line I’m doing fits perfectly. So it’s kind of supernatural. Kind of weird. We all looked at each other, acknowledged - it wasn’t even discussed. Never even discussed that with Bill. I don’t even know if he remembers that, but it happened. That’s just an example of it just coming from some deep knowing place y’know and that fourth Buddhist pillar, Nirvana - that’s where it comes from really. 

Ria: Is there anything specific you do when creating your music - what’s your creative process? Is it even different to how you were younger, because I feel like you’ve switched genres, you’ve been able to experiment probably more now? 

Jah: I can’t wait to get playing. I just really can’t wait to make the sound, make the line. I do a community thing in south London, we built a studio. We were there on Tuesday: Tuned In, it’s called. We had an idea of what we were going to be doing that night, quite a clear idea, and I couldn’t wait to get in there and get the part down. I’m still very enthusiastic.

 I was talking with my younger son about the music now. We can joke around, and we can talk about marketing ourselves and I suppose nowadays, you even think about yourself as a brand to some extent or whatever. I was always not comfortable with that. It was 80’s talk. But I can see why people would do that. At heart, when the finger touches the string and what comes prior to that, is something to be treated with the utmost respect and that’s kind of where this stuff comes from. And that’s the thing. There’s a feeling even in our conversation. What’s prior to the conversation? Something was prior to this that sets the conditions for us to be able to talk, ria, y’know?  That’s the thing! When I went to studio that day with Bill, and the line was completely in sync with the tracks, something was prior to consciousness...

Ria:  Do you have any recommendations music-wise?

Jah: I listen to a lot of Arvo Pärt. I’m always listening to a lot of groovy music, so I want to listen to something that’s transcendent - that isn’t particularly rhythmic, so, Arvo Pärt... I discovered this group from the 90s called Stars of the Lid which I really like. Apple Music Ambient Selections...I really like ambient music, so I listen to a lot of that. Obviously making music all the time, but that’s the stuff I really love y’know? I was driving back last night, and I got a couple of sessions. I’ve done a new Horace Andy album which is great. He’s a real legend so I’ve done that which is a real honour. And I’ve got another couple of reggae albums coming up before the end of the year. They’ve picked the artists and wanna do cover versions of Tamla Motown. So I’ve been listening to a lot of Tamla. Last night, all the way up from London I was listening to Tamla thinking: “my god, this stuff’s incredible!” 

My concluding statement? 

Jah is a man who has embedded himself in star-power legacy. 

Not only has he achieved an enviable feat in spearheading some of the more innovative and complex arrangements of our current time, but we must also champion the man’s efforts at reinventing himself and his commitment to doing better and being better. 

His unparalleled penchant for creating eclectic mixes and pairing sounds which, to the more naked of ears, might not have meshed so well, proves just how deeply his unbridled passion runs.

And so, I propose that Jah is, quite possibly, at the top of his career and testament to the claim that music does not have to stop reaching a certain standard once you’ve already amassed quite the portfolio!

Ria Sagoo

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Edited by Alice Beard

Cover image courtesy of Tina K